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| An idea i'm developing that could really help tourny paintball; Read, contribute, flame, enjoy! | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 17 2010, 02:45 PM (1,994 Views) | |
| Geddon | Jan 17 2010, 02:45 PM Post #1 |
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I could use some preliminary feedback on an idea thats been floating in my head. It seems the problem with tournaments and other events in general is that we're seeing a sharp decline in attendance (at least in my area) and it would seem the reason for that is (other than poorness) that there are alot more options these days for events than there used to be. Using a pie as analogy, the playerbase is the "Pie" and us fields all want a slice of that pie. The more fields, naturally the more tournaments/events. Well unfortunately you can only slice a pie so many times before the recipients of that pie begin to become dissatisfied. Well to some, this is the nature of business and that we should encourage the strong to survive. Competition is good. It keeps prices low and what have you. There's only one problem with this and paintball. You can play paintball at home. If there's not a field, a community for players in an area, then the paintball scene tends to retreat into the woods behind someone's house. Paintballers become tribes of small groups who play together and never meet each other. Some do make the drive to the next closest park or at least venture onto the web to keep track with whats going on, but eventually groups break down and the scene fizzles until someone else starts a small park and the cycle repeats. What solution have i got? I'll let you tell me: I wonder if we can come together with a new community of fields, big and small, and create a new concept for sharing and competing for this pie. Since the little guy fields are necessary to the further development of new players and the sport, we need to find a way for them to get along, and for the sake of not sounding like a democrat (no offense dems but ...) earn their own way. If we created an affiliation of fields who would host tournaments for HOME TEAMS, i think we could create a mutually beneficial situation for everyone. What do i mean? I mean that every park usually has some kind of "home team." ANd if we create a tournament series for HOME TEAMS we will accomplish a few things. 1) a rebirth of the popularity of tournament paintball that yields a sizable number of teams. (I miss the 50+ team tourny days around these parts) 2) the little guys will get some exposure and stick around to help develop their fringe area's paintball interest. 3) tournament producers will actually make some money for putting on an event. 4) help the sponsorship circle of life be more effective by offering more people in one place... To get your team into this tournament you'll have to enter through the "sponsorship" of an affiliate field. This means that you'll have to play paintball at a park. And a field can choose to give its affiliation however many times it chooses through its own individual agreements with players. This opens new windows of opportunities for fields to attract "serious" players. i'm sure i could continue...but its still just a rough concept, let the 'picking apart' begin. Really, i'm interested in hearing what you think. |
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| sigma steve | Jan 17 2010, 08:26 PM Post #2 |
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what bdc said. the only way would be to approach a field in each region. if you work with a couple of fields that already compete in their customer base then you will probably fail. |
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| Geddon | Jan 18 2010, 11:55 AM Post #3 |
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good news is that the field owners don't have to deal with each other on this one, just the organization. I'm tweaking the idea in my mind, more on paper as it develops. Also, i need someone who is more experienced in organizing and running tournaments than I to help take this on if we can pull it off. I've only run a few small tournaments, nothing like this. |
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| sigma steve | Jan 18 2010, 01:44 PM Post #4 |
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What you are losing sight of is the fact that if you take potential customers between two fields that a in direct competition with each other, the owners of the field could see that is a negative. You are exposing their customers to another environment that could steal them long term. Not a good risk for most field owners that are in direct competition. Hopefully this is not something you would have to deal with but you have to keep in mind that is is a factor. One thing that can work to your advantage is the less the field owners have to supply (refs, air, personnel, etc.) and the more margin they stand to make the more willing they will be to work with you. Just food for thought. |
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| fktoast | Jan 18 2010, 08:06 PM Post #5 |
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I think you are on to something. Here is my expansion. Create a North Texas League. Could include anyone in the state or surrounding states. Example: NTXAPL (North Texas Amateur Paintball League) - Example league, doesn't exist to my knowledge. We would create. We could even use PBNTXS, doesn't matter. This league would include "sponsored" teams, I use sponsored loosely as $$ or gear does no apply (maybe air?), consisting of fields, shops, etc only. To enter the league under said shop, field name local prelims will be held at said fields, etc (very informal but documented, fields could charge small entry fee). The best from these prelims get to enter the NTXAPL, or whatever we call it, and play a regional battle at a designated field each, month or 3 months, have to decide. We could rotate fields after each tourny. Those fields or shops who participate get to be in the rotation. Shops who don't have fields can pick a home field. I think this approach will keep distribution of player base organic until main tourny event keeping the fields happy and will allow fields and shops to advertise their brand and give them a chance to hold the tourny but not monopolize it. |
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| fktoast | Jan 18 2010, 08:11 PM Post #6 |
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To start I need names of folks who want to be involved. This will require time, organization, networking, and most of all a good attitude. I can give every weekend all weekend long every month for this. |
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| bizzarr1 | Jan 18 2010, 08:24 PM Post #7 |
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I Am Everywhere... Else
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Maybe every team has to have a sponsor that is either a field or a store, and a field or store can only have one sponsored team. In order to do this right, I think that someone should approach the fields and stores with a comprehensive and detailed plan of action. Edited by bizzarr1, Jan 18 2010, 08:24 PM.
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| sigma steve | Jan 18 2010, 08:41 PM Post #8 |
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what he said. |
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| fktoast | Jan 18 2010, 09:35 PM Post #9 |
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Exactly |
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| Geddon | Jan 18 2010, 09:41 PM Post #10 |
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just had a great phone conversation with Toast and i think we hammered out some details really well. Next time we speak is going to be in person to try and get some of this down on paper and bring the organization together. I, unfortunately, don't have as much time to physically do everything myself, so people like toast to come in and assist is going to be necessary to get it off the ground. I can help coordinate from my bunker as much as possible. Lets put a team together and actually *do* something instead of talk about it. |
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| fktoast | Jan 18 2010, 10:11 PM Post #11 |
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Not sure what we are going to call this league yet but I went ahead and secured a domain name in case we all like the name. North Texas Paintball League or ntxpbl.com Again we do not have to use this at all. I just wanted to get something locked in that would be a contender for the name. Could we use pbntxs??? Does anyone else have ideas? Edited by fktoast, Jan 18 2010, 10:12 PM.
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| fktoast | Jan 18 2010, 10:16 PM Post #12 |
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One more thing. We could even let local smaller tournys submit winners as a way to promote that tourny. |
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| fktoast | Jan 18 2010, 11:23 PM Post #13 |
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Unfortunately limiting the "affiliate" (store, field, pro team, etc) to only one team limits the turnout. We not only want a lot of teams for the end tourny but people too! 50 teams of 5 is 250 people not including family, friends, etc. I am sure the fields will appreciate the revenue from food and drink sales, etc. |
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| Geddon | Jan 19 2010, 03:03 AM Post #14 |
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i plan to have all the groundwork laid out clearly before i approach anyone with this. I simply wanted to put some of you old dogs on the idea to see if it were solid. I have about 1500 crappy ideas before i get one with merit. And of those with merit, only a few make it. :P |
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| Geddon | Jan 19 2010, 03:04 AM Post #15 |
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I think toast is excited, ya'll. What do you think? |
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| sigma steve | Jan 19 2010, 09:25 AM Post #16 |
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i wish you guys the best of luck. hopefully this will work out to the best. i am just skeptical knowing tournament paintball players. i think you have a good concept. if you thing it completely through and have a almost flawless execution, anything is possible. |
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| switchblade12 | Jan 19 2010, 10:12 AM Post #17 |
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V.I.P.
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I think this has already been tried in pretty much the same fashion by more than one person here I'm sorry to say. As big daddy stated before, some of us have tried this before and talked to some of the field owners and got the response, if field A is in than ( I field B am out ) Here in the Dallas/Fort Worth/North Texas area we have 8 fields and a few more just outside of town, That gives you at the most and this is a stretch, 8 teams all Rookies with no money. They all want to play X-Ball but cant afford the paint $$$ that goes with it, kind of a catch 22. The teams today are for the most part teenagers with no money. Not like a few years ago when you had adults with money and sportsman ship and the maturity to take a loss. Chalk it up to the modern game, it's style of play the guns speed,age what every you want. Bizzarr1 has worked his ass off trying to resurrect the tournaments in North Texas with so far some good results, but a sad comparison to years past. Now no one so far is as organized and experienced as Bizzarr and the crew he has at putting on a tournament. What he has found to work so far is what has worked in the past years like pump, mech and one battery type tournaments with no prizes. We will see soon how well the 10man tournament goes as there has been good interest in it, but i think it's going to be some what of a long road trying to change the mentality of today's players, but Bizzarr has been successful so far, it's just going to take time and baby steps to get back to were we where 5 years ago. Now ask your self, why do you get more players to attend a scenario than a local tournament? ( Multiple choice question ) A) because they are cheaper B) because anyone can play ( age,size,skill level ) C) because you get more playing time on the field D) because you get better prizes E) because of the type of game you play I don't think a new game or a different structure is going to fix the state of tournament ball in Texas. It's more of an age and mentality thing that needs to change. I'm not trying to be a downer here, but there is many like minded people on here, some with many years of experience and some new with fresh ideas that i think could make a big impact if they were to join forces and come up with a common goal, so til than we all have to swallow the shit soup that is Texas Paintball. |
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| fktoast | Jan 19 2010, 12:17 PM Post #18 |
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Can we get Bizzarr in here for some involvement? |
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| fktoast | Jan 19 2010, 12:45 PM Post #19 |
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Your're not being a downer. Just providing some realism to the topic. I like it, and already have some ideas from your post of issues that need to be resolved. Thank you! Example tournament schedule and layout, rules, etc. These are my notes, please expand on them. If you would like to continue this discussion in a more official capacity then ask me for an email account and for access to collaboration documents though a Google Apps domain. Here is the format. I am purposefully leaving out the business aspects since we still do not have an official format or budget. The ultimate goal is to keep this cheap, cheap, cheap, stimulate tournament play, and to reward players for entering the league. By reward I mean better discounts on paint and air. 3 weeks of competition Teams pay very small one time entry fee to field for team registration within the league ($$ goes to field not league. I am thinking $10). League play happens at affiliate fields who are responsible for recording and submitting game data to league. Teams still pay normal fields admission rates plus either $1 per game (1 game is best of 3 matches) or $xx for all day/weekend pass to compete in weekly league competition. $$ Still goes to field. By entering league through affiliate field players will receive discounts on paint and air at said field. We are ultimately looking for a balance to where cost of entering league and discounts provided by field even out but still leave fields with a little something extra for participating. We have to remember that without the fields 100% involvement this will not be possible. Again we are looking to stimulate competition in an economically friendly way. We are not trying to gouge or blood suck parents and kids out of money. Markers - All markers allowed, pumps, tourny markers, rentals etc. The idea is to get the folks who are already going out to the fields for recreation to jump in and compete. 4th week "Play for Paint" tournament - Winning team receive x number of cases of paint. 1,2, etc. Top 4 or 5 or whatever are automatically entered into the NTXPBL or whatever we call it that happens at the end of 4-7 months. Those of you who are more in-tune with current paintball leagues and market please chime in on this. This needs discussing. I have a lot more to add but need to get back to work. |
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| switchblade12 | Jan 19 2010, 02:21 PM Post #20 |
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We have a pump league that has been in the works for awhile that will be starting Feb. or March with this same concept, so we will see how it works. The main problem with what you want to do is the players, as i said before want to play the X-Ball format because it's all they know and it's what they think tournament paintball is, because that's what the "pros" play. They just have not figured it out that they can't play that format because of $$$$$ they can't afford to shoot that much paint, but they want to pretend like they can. There has been a few tournaments in the past few months with sad turnouts that were X-Ball style and if they would have done them right no one would of had enough paint to finish the tournament, so they had a prelim and then straight to the final, so you have a tournament that starts at 11:00 and ends at 3:00 pretty sad. O and only 6 teams showed-Rookie/ they all bitch about $50.00 paint too. Bizzarr will chime in, he can tell you the logistic problems you are up against. |
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| fktoast | Jan 19 2010, 03:41 PM Post #21 |
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Thank you for the insight. I look forward to hearing all of the experienced community members. What do you think would be a reasonable price for paint for league members? Is $50 a day/weekend a good target? Edited by fktoast, Jan 19 2010, 04:11 PM.
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| bizzarr1 | Jan 19 2010, 04:36 PM Post #22 |
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I Am Everywhere... Else
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I am watching. I will pm you my phone # if you want to grill me about what we have been doing as I am tired of airing it in front of people who think they know how to run tournaments without any experience whatsoever. I will tell you this. If you do not have really thick skin, do not try it. Running paintball tournaments is demanding, and time consuming. If you can show me a plan and a method of carrying it out, Robert and I will have no problem with you associating with us at pbntxs.com, as long as we are clear about what you are doing, our part in it, and you can convince us that you have a reasonable chance of success. We have enough of our own failures... Hell, this forum is the result of one. We already do the pump days, and the 10 man woodsball events, and occasionally have held a pump tournament, so one more wouldn't hurt as long as it is done according to our mission plan. |
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| switchblade12 | Jan 19 2010, 05:01 PM Post #23 |
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Hell I see nothing wrong with $50. I'm old school, we paid $85 and up back in the day, but back than you could play a whole 10 man tournament on a case of paint, now the kids think if you don't shoot a case in a 5min game you don't have a chance at winning. This is just were the game is today, kids lac skill so they want to make up for it by having a high rate of fire and a small field so that they don't have far to go to get to cover. What's going to have to happen is the game needs to come back to a point that all players of all Age's, Sizes and skill level can play. Back in the day I played with players that were anywhere from 50 to 13 years of age and all where on the same skill level, we had Pro and Amateur that's it, at the local level you had Am that's it. Now you have Rookie,rookie1,2,3,4 and be fore long I'm sure 5,6 pussy divisions oops! I mean Rookie divisions. They will play this division there whole paintball career. Sorry for the rant, but this is were we sit. A hand full of us have been around 15yrs or more so we have seen it come full circle to the state it is now, which is a very sad state that doesn't seem to have a quick and easy fix. Our solution for now, is Pump paintball, we are trying to take players back to the roots of the game, and show them that there is more to this game than colorful jerseys and fast guns. So many skills like snap shooting, moving, communicating, team work just to name a few, have been lost over the past few years to fast guns, small fields and somebody trying to make a quick buck. I mean hell it takes years to be really good at something, you can't just buy it, all though you can't tell the new kids this. So we just go out and own them with pumps, there is nothing more humbling to a kid with a brand new state of the art marker than to get owned all day by a 30 or 40 something year old guy with a pump and a bag of paint. |
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| fktoast | Jan 19 2010, 06:21 PM Post #24 |
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Slow the game down. (Restrict rate of fire to???) All ages and all skill levels can play. No rookie 1,2,etc. I think to start there should be no ranking or class at all. Just games that are recorded. What else? By the way. These ideas and thoughts are a vision of the future. I understand the league or competitive play will not start off like a lot of the ideas previously discussed. I can see a possible road map including small progressions from what you guys are already doing. Heck maybe we should all rally a little more around current tournament projects. Later on I would like to see those of us who are talking or watching get together and play each other at these fields and set an example of our discussions. I am new to the community so I apologize if this is already going on. If there is anything I can do to help with current projects please let me know. Even if it is showing up. Edited by fktoast, Jan 19 2010, 06:24 PM.
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| fktoast | Jan 19 2010, 06:39 PM Post #25 |
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On another note. Marketing and Direct Communication Putting together a list of fields, shops is easy and needs to be done. I will handle that. What we need is a contact list of people, clubs, teams, organizations, etc to contact and get community feedback. Find out what the mass community really wants and who will participate. I have spoken with several shops and players at shops and they all have said they want more competitive play. Some are looking to Houston, San Marcus, well S Texas for that matter. I have received communication through this board and others from teams saying they are interested, what is the plan, and what do you want from us. Of course I don't have much to give them at this time but the point is I am getting good initial community feedback and I don't know anyone. I am not personally asking for numbers addresses, etc, yet. I think this is one crucial part to getting something new or already existing some momentum. I ask that you please make a list, write it down, and when it's appropriate we can put everything together and start talking to the community more when we have something. |
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